Surrendering to the Chaos: A Composer's Guide to Time Management

Gareth Davies: 00:00:14

Welcome to the Music Room. This time in the Music Room, I.

Ben McAvoy: 00:00:31

Guess the summary is both work and family are as intense as each other. Sort of most of the time it's. It's fairly sort of full on.

Jenny Plant: 00:00:38

I play netball, I play religiously every Monday and no one will stop me.

Florence Sabeva: 00:00:44

I love to go to the piano and just, you know, improvise, but very simple melodies, like something kind of relaxing, especially with my son. I started to write really kind of lullabies for him, so I play them for him to go to sleep and it just soothes me as well.

Gareth Davies: 00:01:02

Hello and welcome to the Music Room. A slightly different show today. This one's all about time management and. And it doesn't really feature me.

It's the brainchild of composer Helen Lyon, who featured as a guest on an episode of the Music Room last December. So what you're going to hear today is an honest discussion about time management.

Spinning those plates, balancing work and home life, or attempting to. And busting some myths that, you know, there are very few working composers who don't face time management issues in their working weeks.

Hopefully that will help you as well as you navigate your own way. So without further ado, let's crack on. I had a natter with Helen before she led the discussion with not one, not two, but three amazing guests. Enjoy.

Gareth Davies: 00:01:50

Helen Lyon, composer and previous Music Room guest. Welcome to the Music Room.

Helen Lyon: 00:01:56

Thank you for having me.

Gareth Davies: 00:01:59

How are you today?

Helen Lyon: 00:02:01

day's shining and It's a nice: 10:00

Gareth Davies: 00:02:08

And slightly different to the chat you had with this episode's guests, which was held in the evening evening. Which really ties into the. The theme of time management, doesn't it?

Helen Lyon: 00:02:20

Absolutely, absolutely.

Gareth Davies: 00:02:22

But, Helen, you appeared on your Music Room episode All About Community last year.

Helen Lyon: 00:02:27

I did.

Gareth Davies: 00:02:27

Last December. I'll put that in the show notes, by the way, if anyone wants to listen to that.

But more recently, we were chatting and I casually slipped in an invite to be a guest host and fast forward a little bit and you had this idea of inviting some people on to talk about what it is to be both the parents and a freelancer in this wonderful music industry. And you have children. You've certainly felt that challenge of balancing work and home life.

What inspired you to kind of pitch that idea of time management for the Music Room?

Helen Lyon: 00:03:00

I think that I feel probably on a daily basis that I'm pulled between, not only pulled between my work and my family, but I'm Also pulled to thinking about how little visibility and little discussion there is around it.

When I look at social media as a composer and when I'm, you know, at home and I've just dropped my kids off and maybe I'm getting my studio set up and getting ready to go and I scroll social media, the most common thing that I see is other composers being very successful, which we all know of course is whatever they've released that week. But there's very little discussion, I think, often about the juggle that goes on.

And sometimes I feel frustrated about that because I would love people to understand the juggle, but I actually want it to be a positive thing to discuss the fact that actually as freelancers, and not necessarily just parents, but as freelancers, we are constantly juggling our time, whether it's our time at home working or in a studio, if you work in a studio, or whether it's because we've got to travel for a sound mix or for networking and all of the other stuff that we didn't even touch on in the podcast.

But you know, the fact we've got to be the sole owners of our websites and our, you know, show reels and our emails and everything else, we kind of have to be, you know, 10% composer and 90% administrator. And I think that's also. We didn't touch on that, but that's all feeds into that discussion about how, how are we managing our time.

Gareth Davies: 00:04:28

And I think, reflecting on the chat, I think it's really good for listeners to hear about that. For composers, whether they're mid career or veterans or just starting out, to see other composers having these daily struggles.

Helen Lyon: 00:04:45

Yes.

Gareth Davies: 00:04:46

And not the Instagram life. Yes. So I think it's a, a really good idea for an episode theme.

Helen Lyon: 00:04:52

Yeah. And people do often ask me because I've got children, I've had people come and say, how do you do it? And how am I possibly going to do it?

How am I going to make it work? And of course my answer is always, I don't know.

Gareth Davies: 00:05:08

Sorry, am I making it work?

Helen Lyon: 00:05:11

I'm very glad, I'm very glad. It looks like I'm functioning here.

But you know, I think it's also for people who haven't started their families yet or maybe aren't going to, but it's just, it's to hear that it is manageable. I hope it's a positive conversation, that it is totally manageable. But you know, we've got tips that we have along the way.

But it's just, do you know What? It's really nice to have a discussion with other parents and other composers and all just be nodding and agreeing about the same things. That's.

That's the thing that's wonderful about it really, isn't it? It's just sharing.

Gareth Davies: 00:05:44

Yeah.

Helen Lyon: 00:05:44

Those experiences. Really.

Gareth Davies: 00:05:46

Yeah. And you went out and gathered some wonderful guests for this chat.

Helen Lyon: 00:05:49

I did.

Gareth Davies: 00:05:49

Talk me through who they are and why you invited them.

Helen Lyon: 00:05:52

Okay, so first I invited Jenny Plant. She is an award winning singer, songwriter and composer with a broad range of experience.

Her beautiful voice can be heard on a variety of original soundtracks including The Little Mermaid, BBC's Red Rose and the award winning video game Death Stranding. She frequently writes for music libraries including bmg, ninjatune and apm.

And she's a member of BAFTA Connect, the alliance of women and film composers and Mums in Music.

And I chose Jenny because she's just a superb human and I met her through Mums in Music and wanted to have her side of how it is to be both a performer and a composer on the podcast. My second guest was Ben McAvoy, who I've known for a few years, a fellow Northern composer, one of the main reasons I chose him.

And I also wanted a dad on the podcast. I thought it'd be important to have a dad's perspective on this as well.

He's a director, music composer and sound designer at WMP Studio, based at the Brand New Tile Yard north in Wakefield. He's been composing music for moving image projects for 17 years and specializes in modern cinematic compositions.

He's also a dad to a nine year old and a four year old and husband to Ruth. And then finally, I invited Florence Saba, who is hailing from Belgium with Bulgarian roots.

She's a London based film composer, pianist and songwriter, as well as scoring very short films and releasing eps with subtle electronic textures. She's currently touring with synth pop band Heaven 17.

She's also shared her musical talents as a session musician with artists such as Thompson Twins, Tom Bailey and Glenn Matlock.

Gareth Davies: 00:07:27

Wonderful. So, without any further ado, shall we get into the Music Room to find out more about how they manage their time?

Helen Lyon: 00:07:34

Yes, please.

Gareth Davies: 00:07:35

Here we go.

Helen Lyon: 00:07:41

Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us for this special edition of the Music Room Podcast.

I have got three incredible guests this evening who have very kindly agreed to speak to me about time management, particularly in the kind of guise of time management when you were a freelancer, a composer and also a parent, which we all are. I really hope that anyone listening, you don't have to Be a parent.

And I hope that you will find something useful, whether it's a tip about how to network more effectively, how to carve out some time for yourself or whether you're maybe thinking about, about children. So hopefully our wonderful guests will give everyone some advice and maybe a chance to have like a little bit of steam.

Everybody about, you know, isn't. It's late recording in the evening. We've all had busy days today so I thought, Ben, I would start with you if that's okay.

McAvoy all the way over in Wakefield, we are all parents, all of us have children of varying numbers and varying ages. I know that yours are sort of just about in school and then I think four and nine yours. That's right, yeah. Well remembered and thanks.

And I just wondered if you could start us off by talking a little bit about your work and family setup. So I suppose take a typical week or a typical day. What are you juggling and what is the setup in terms of your work and family?

If you could just give us a brief sort of idea and then. Yeah, just to set us up.

Ben McAvoy: 00:09:06

Yeah. I guess the summary is both work and family are as intense as each other. Sort of most of the time it's fairly sort of full on 24 hours a day.

I mean in terms of a typical day, my wife is a primary school teacher so we sort of wake up fairly early but my wife's out of the door at well near on sort of half seven as she possibly can depending on what's going on with the kids at that point.

So I sort of typically take care of drop offs to school or to breakfast club depending on again how cooperative my children have basically on that day and then sort of, you know, effectively head over here, usually get to the studio about 9, 9 o'clock, 9:15 if the traffic's being good to me and then you know, in essence sort of the opposite end of the day, you know, so we both spend the full day working. My wife doesn't have her phone on because she can't. So she's kind of, she kind of disappears at 7:30.

That's basically the last I hear from her till about 4:30 in the afternoon.

So it's sort of fairly um, you know, if anything sort of happens at school or there's any, anybody's poorly or there's something that's happened, normally it's me that gets the phone call, which is interesting at times but obviously happens. But yeah, I sort of.

We both work a full day and you know, my My day sort of creatively is split between writing and generally sort of managing projects and then, and then the meetings that kind of come with that I suppose in terms of sort of the slightly sort of corporate branded stuff we do or ad stuff we do and then on the other, other side of the day really my.

It's, you know, my wife sort of really so she does pickups from, from after school club and all of that kind of stuff and usually Monday or Tuesday I work quite late so I tend to work until about sort of 8:00 ish on a, on a. On a Monday or Tuesday but then on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday and Sunday the kids have clubs pretty much every single day.

So basically I go pick up my older one from Brownies or It's basically logistically moving children around in the evening these days which seems to be increasingly what. What is happening. It's really full on. And then in the evening, you know, by the. We've got the kids in bed.

I think my wife and I probably have about half an hour of uninterrupted TV time which is. That's basically it. I mean we go to bed at sort of 9:30. This is really. Because we're not all the time continually tired all the time.

So it's really full on. It's really full on.

Helen Lyon: 00:11:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. That sounds so similar to me but just kind of exactly the same really.

My husband goes and disappears and that's why I was interested to get you on as well Ben because you know, there is a lot of talk obviously about you know, women and having children.

I think it's really interesting also to hear from you that you are doing the morning and the taking to school and also you're the one that gets called if they're sick. I think that's a really interesting thing to hear. Definitely.

Ben McAvoy: 00:12:08

Yeah. My wife has a class of 30 kids. She can't leave them. But I think again it's kind of interesting because I think it's. I guess it's sort of.

It's just something we've grown up with.

It's something that we've sort of as the kids have got older or since the kids have been born it's always been the way it's kind of been for us and I think, I think we, we try really hard to kind of generally, I think or subconsciously keep it quite equal. Yeah, I'd hope that that would be the case. I'd hope that we, we weren't sort of.

But it Ebbs and flows, you know, like I'm away, I'm, you know, flying to Riyadh in two weeks and I won't be around for the whole week and stuff like that. So there are the odd occasions where it sort of radically changes. But I think we make team. I think that's, that's the point.

So yeah, I guess sort of we come at it from a two pronged approach.

Helen Lyon: 00:13:01

Yeah, absolutely. What about you, Jenny? Because your daughter's. I met. Had the absolute joy of meeting her a few weeks ago. She is completely adorable.

She's slightly younger, isn't she? She's. She almost two?

Jenny Plant: 00:13:13

She's. No, yeah, she's two and a bit.

Helen Lyon: 00:13:16

She's two and a bit. That's right, yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:13:17

Actually this month, two and a half. But yeah, it's what you're saying, Ben, about team being a team. It's literally the most important thing.

My husband works, he has his own company which I guess gives an element of flexibility. But I'm obviously freelance so yeah, we just make it work. And my day, you know, in the.

She goes to nursery three days a week currently on a, on a Thursday and Friday I look after her, which is interesting in our world because, you know, briefs come in on a Thursday or you know, and you're like, oh, but this is a mean all a day. We kind of. Our nursery are quite flexible.

Sometimes you can get last minute slots there or we've got some other childcare and really lovely nanny who sometimes we can call. But you know, worst case scenario if it's something really important.

My husband's amazing at kind of stepping in last minute and being like, right, I'll do the morning. And she, she luckily has a lunchtime nap at the moment which I'm like, I'm holding on to desperately.

I like, I know it's going soon but anyway, so you know, he, he for example, will could take the morning and then the lunchtime nap and then so I've got from like 8 till 3 and then, you know, I can take over that bit. You just, yeah, kind of just make it work or I work evenings, you know, that's the other thing I end up doing when I'm really busy.

That's how it goes. Obviously. Again, freelance ebbs and flows but on those busy patches, yeah, you just kind of. It's teamwork that's the most important thing.

And yeah, I guess I'm lucky that my husband works for himself so he can dip in and out, you know, a bit easier.

Helen Lyon: 00:15:01

Yeah, yeah, it's that thing, isn't it? Of just working like you get used to the routine of they're not really always being a routine. I think it's that, isn't it?

It's really interesting that you've. You said exactly that. My husband would just take. If it was.

If it was an absolute non negotiable and I had an ill child, he would just take half a day. Like he actually said the worst thing he said to me today. I won't actually get fired if I don't turn up to that meeting.

But you might not get that job. So it's.

Sometimes it is that you know and you kind of rely on the person that has the stable, you know, employment salary that won't get fired for that. That's a bit. That's a drastic example. What about you Florence and your setup? How old's your.

Florence Sabeva: 00:15:38

He's 14 months now. So he's still very young. We're transitioning to one nap. So now just talking about naps like this is the time where you can do some work.

My situation is slightly different because I'm single parenting so it is very challenging.

My ex partner lives in Belgium and my family as well because so the days are really more than full on but typically now he's going two days and a half to nursery which are the days when he started.

I was hoping to do like try to get a little bit more work but there's so many things to do like in the house and well everything around preparing food, anything really. So it's. It's very challenging. The thing is I'm working part time. Well part time. Before my son I was doing house of.

I'm still gigging a lot so this is more touring so it's easier to organize. For example, because I have two or three weeks of concerts so I can say okay, my. My son is going to go to his grandparents or with his dad.

So it's kind of easy to organize. But there's been gigs like I used to do a little bit of functions that I cannot take anymore because usually it's last minute.

So it's so difficult at this age for me. I find it really difficult to also have a babysitter and cost so much money as well, sometimes not worth it.

And in terms of film, music composition, Rachel and everything, I try to keep talking, a bit of networking, I try to keep contacts but it's so difficult to stay in the flow because there's so many things around to take chaos. So I find this part very challenging.

So the Clients or the people I've been working with and who knows me, I still have work from them but obviously I have as well. I need to be really careful about how much work I can take because obviously my time is very limited.

So it's that time management like and self care at the moment there's no time for that. It's just like sleep. It's my self care. At least he's sleeping, he's sleeping through the night which is like amazing.

So yeah, you know, you have to take all the positive things.

Jenny Plant: 00:18:12

Yeah, it's really, yeah really, really interesting.

Helen Lyon: 00:18:14

That you said that touring actually is easier in many ways because it's something you can plan in advance so far ahead and then. Yeah, that's a really interesting thing to hear actually.

I think that's probably be useful for some people maybe to think about that because some people might think that touring would be a really challenging aspect. But you're right, it's the last minute things that are so difficult to sort, particularly if you haven't got that support.

Yeah, that support network around you. You just touched on networking there, Florence and I just wondered whether you had any more to say about networking.

Just for context, for everybody listening. I think it's important. I mean my opinion of what networking is is anything that goes from like coffee with a friend.

So I went and met Jenny when I was in London and you know, I would class that as networking because we're two people that might at some point, you know, know someone who needs us or we might work together all the way through to, you know, getting a ticketed event to a film festival or going to an Ivor's event or whatever it is. You know, networking is a really huge topic, you know, it's massive.

And this is one of the main things I wanted to talk about because when we network that's how we actually find our work. It's very difficult to just sit and for people to know who we are.

One of the main things about being creative is we have to say to people this is who we are. And that's one of the things I think that's difficult.

You just touched on that flow about sort of being visible for a few weeks or for a few months and then thinking everyone's going to forget who I am or there'll be somebody else who's similar. And I think that's definitely a fear that I've spoken to other people about.

And especially being parents where you've got other things to think about. Do you have any time for networking Florence or any sort of plans to do.

Jenny Plant: 00:19:50

To do that.

Florence Sabeva: 00:19:50

I want to do more networking. Like you say, you can just be the coffee meeting with other colleagues or friends. I have found that very difficult up to now.

Now is the time where I'm starting to kind of have more of a routine as well. Because up to now I found it really chat because there was not one day that was the same.

That's like especially the six first months, you're just trying to stay alive. I would say it's challenging. I've been wanting to go to some events, but the first time, well, not yet was an ivory then.

But then he was sick, I couldn't go. Then there was a babysitter problem and then I was too tired. I was just like, oh, not this time.

So there's always or there's something that is more important in terms of priority. So it can be really tough. I find it really tough, the networking part.

But I think this has also to be like now trying to be more organized because there's more of a routine.

So try to know also like okay, this week maybe I can try to go for a coffee and just really plan it and you know, look the time for that or in advance, you know, there's going to be a film festival, just say okay, maybe not just go for a couple of hours, one of the day, something like that. So I'm thinking about more networking but I haven't started yet, I would say.

Helen Lyon: 00:21:27

And that's why I think it's included in time management really. It's one of those things you have to plan for and it's also can be really expensive. It can be extremely pricey.

Jenny, I, I think you're a pretty good networker. I think you must go to some good stuff. What's your kind of deal with networking?

Jenny Plant: 00:21:43

Well, I just want to quickly say the days of spontaneity is. Have, have gone a bit, haven't I? Like just. I mean you do have to plan a bit. I mean occasionally it can kind of work out.

But yeah, I have to say my networking come like I do it in blasts.

Helen Lyon: 00:21:59

Yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:21:59

I have to say I have just come back from la so I am very networked out right now.

Helen Lyon: 00:22:05

Yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:22:07

And I went out there and met a lot of people. And again actually Florence, what you were saying about it's easier sometimes.

Like that was a weak chunk of time that I dedicated to networking and so the chart from a childcare perspective it's like easy to plan that because like, you know, all I was with my Husband for the week. Bam. Like that was done. But I did it as a big chunk there and then. I mean, my networking, I do do a bit of it, but yeah, as I said, I.

I do it all kind of all at once, really, is how I'd probably do it. I don't know, I just. Because I've just been to la, so it feels like I've done it all at once.

Helen Lyon: 00:22:45

Yeah. So how. How do you find your work then, Jenny? Do people come to you with things or do you need to go out and seek it?

Jenny Plant: 00:22:53

Yeah, I do go out and seek it. I do. I mean, I've got a meeting tomorrow, actually, in person with a music supervising agency I have been in touch with for ages. And I'll.

Okay, I'll send out an email and say, haven't spoken for a while. Let's book in a coffee. I think you can, like, face to face, it's the best thing ever. I think, actually, like, it's the most important thing.

Florence Sabeva: 00:23:13

You can.

Jenny Plant: 00:23:14

You can send an email to someone. Yeah, that's fine. Sometimes, you know, you can get work from that. But, you know, the value of face to face, it's. It's so important.

And also just quickly going back to, you know, maternity leave and when you first have a baby, like you have that real chunk of time where you're away from the industry and. Florence, you were saying, it's a really good point.

You kind of, you're not forgotten, but you kind of are because the world moves on and people are working with who they're working with at that time. And when you come back, it's another. Like you're starting again.

Ultimately, in a way, obviously you keep up, you can keep up relationships, but you, you know, it can feel a bit like that, that you're kind of clawing back in. I think I went off on a tangent there, but.

Helen Lyon: 00:24:03

No, no, I like, I like that tangent. I was just thinking I was having a chat with somebody not very long ago about this and about sort of female. If this is.

Okay, Ben, to just discuss this briefly for a moment.

Ben McAvoy: 00:24:16

I'm not going to explain.

Helen Lyon: 00:24:18

Feel free to chip in.

It's an interesting discussion about female initiatives, you know, different schemes that the different companies are doing in order to kind of have a female only album or a scheme for female producers or whatever it might be. And I had a really interesting discussion with someone about what. Not what was the.

What was the purpose, but whether they were working, whether they're effective or. And what was the reason for them. And we Had a good old discussion about maternity.

I mean, I had all my children before I started working as a composer, really, which is, I think, fairly unusual. So they've always sort of just been tagged on my back. I feel like as I've been. As I've been. As I've been working and I sort of gradually sort of.

They've left my knees and now sleep in their own beds while I work, which is great. What do we think about whether there's enough being done?

I suppose, because I do feel sometimes, and I don't want this to be negative at all, but I do feel there can be a real onus on the person, on the creative, to go out and seek the work. And I suppose for people like Florence, that's still incredibly hard because you've got such a young child.

Do we think those kind of initiatives are working and do we think that there's space for more of those in the industry? I'm opening that up to anybody, really.

Jenny Plant: 00:25:30

I know I've just spoken, but can I just really quickly say something?

Helen Lyon: 00:25:33

Yes, do, please.

Jenny Plant: 00:25:33

Only because it's very relevant. I'm part of an organization called Mamas and Music, as are you, Helen. Sorry.

Helen Lyon: 00:25:38

Yes, I am.

Jenny Plant: 00:25:39

Thanks for mentioning them.

Helen Lyon: 00:25:41

Yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:25:41

Mamas and Music. And at the moment, I'm actually coordinating a library album for Mamas and Music. And there's.

I've been doing it for the last few months with a big label and we've got eight tracks and it's coming out soon. I think it's been a massive project, but it's been great.

And it's been, you know, and actually a lot of what's been lovely is collaborations between us. Uk, like. Yeah, actually globally, to be honest. And I've been writing with a US friend and it's really. It's been. Yeah, it's all Mamas in Music and.

Yeah, it's like a pop album. And it's great.

Helen Lyon: 00:26:18

Yeah. And that's the other thing about networking, I think, is actually I'm on loads of groups and I think.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think you are, Jenny.

You know, we're in different WhatsApp groups and on different Facebook groups and things, and that really is essentially networking, I think, you know, so we can do that. And I think that started probably with the pandemic, didn't it?

You know, I remember when I went to my first Mums in Music meeting, just breathing out a massive sigh of relief because it suddenly felt so lovely to have other mums in the room talking.

Jenny Plant: 00:26:48

Right, Ben?

Helen Lyon: 00:26:48

We will.

Florence Sabeva: 00:26:48

We.

Helen Lyon: 00:26:49

We finally got to you.

Ben McAvoy: 00:26:51

No, I, I think it's good. That sounds amazing, Jenny. I mean it.

I think that it is from a male perspective, it's probably worth sort of just mentioning that it is like, although, you know, we were talking about, my wife and I trying to keep things sort of fairly similar, like in terms of responsibility, it is vastly different. I mean, let's be kind of just really frank and really honest about it. The differences are cataclysmic in terms of, you know, it's enormous.

And I think also, you know, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it still feels to me very much like a. Particularly the music supervision, Jenny, of a really male dominated industry.

And I think that has something to do with it in the sense that it's dominated because women go off and have kids and don't come back to the industry afterwards. But either because it's absolutely impossible to, or because it's. They don't want to, you know, they've just been put off or whatever.

You know, if you spend nine months after this industry and you don't, you don't network and you don't connect because you're effectively, you've generated a child and you're. And you're looking after that small human being and trying to keep them alive, it's really, really hard to kind of get back in. In touch, you know.

And I think I sort of feel like that if I don't call people in a week, you know, nine months or 12 months is a really, really long time to kind of have your focus on something else. And I think also it's worth mentioning just the stress that that then puts an already stressful career under, is. Is, you know, is immense.

So there are some really distinct differences between, I think between men and women. It is worth, it is worth really sort of, you know, recognizing those differences.

I think, though, there is also an inherent responsibility on men to change that. And I don't want to be sort of, you know, I mean, I'm not getting on a pedestal and I do nothing about this.

This is not, this is not something that sort of comes into my thinking very often at all.

But I think it is a responsibility for a male dominated industry to try and make it more accessible and easier for women not only sort of to enter the industry in the first place, but to continue their careers after they've had kids. You know, the best music supervisors I've ever worked with are all, are all women.

They're just, you know, to be really frank, I think they're incredibly much better at it than men are in a lot of ways. Not mentioning any names, of course, but I think it's true.

I think it's as much men's responsibility to sort of keep those doors open as it is to anybody else. And I think that's really the real key thing here, is that the onus is always on you.

It's always your responsibility to do this or pick up the phone and your responsibility to decide that you're going to come back after having kids or decide what you're going to do with your time. You know, it's. That's crazy. It's like. It's. That's. It's a really sort of isolating experience, you know, and so I think it's.

Yeah, I think it's really important to mention that stuff. Really?

Helen Lyon: 00:29:51

Totally. Yeah. I think it's interesting what you said about being isolating. And I think that's one of the reasons.

I think hopefully talking about this kind of thing will help people because it can feel quite isolating. And I think sometimes you can feel like you are the only person climbing up a very, very big hill.

And just going back to what Jenny said before about meeting in person. And really the work that I've got has always been for meeting people in person.

And there's other discussions that we could have on an entirely different topic, but, you know, location and all of those things come into it as well.

But also the expense and also trying to cram, you know, when I go to London, I desperately try and cram as many meetings as I can into two days because I would really want to make the most of the time I've got. Because, you know, someone once said to me, if you say yes to something, what are you saying no to?

And there's always that pull of, well, it's another bedtime I'm not with my children. It's another day that I'm not, you know, on top of the washing and all of the other. The other things that we do.

And it's also the fear of saying that that is actually our reality. And I think that's. I would really love to bust that and to.

I'm really glad you've all, you know, openly discussing the fact you have children because I also think it's really important to accept that we are all professionals and we are all creative and we're all really good at our jobs, but we do also all have children. And I think that's Such an important thing to talk about. I do want to talk about self care now this is a. An interesting part of time management.

I think it's really important. I would class. The odd bit of networking for me is actually self care. There are some really nice networking.

You class them as networking but there are a few really nice things that I do that for me is self care. I've got a local composer, Sam, he won't mind me mentioning him.

He lives very near to me and we go and have a coffee and those sorts of networkings I think can be really enjoyable Ben, if you've got any.

We're going to transition into the self care discussion but I suppose on the way before you tell us about your self care routine, Ben, which I'm sure is extremely rigid and I wonder if you have any networking where you just think oh yeah, I can't wait to go and see those people. Or you know, where you've had an experience where maybe you got a brilliant job out of it and it was a surprise or.

Ben McAvoy: 00:32:09

Yeah, it's a really good question. I think my relationship with networking events has definitely evolved I think along with the kids getting older really.

I can remember networking very, very hard when, before the kids came along and that felt entirely different to the way that it feels now.

I think I was excited about, you know, being in London for two days and kind of really excited about sort of drinks networking and kind of a hotel stay and all that kind of stuff. And I think that's sort of probably faded slightly for me now. I think I'm. I'm excited about going home again after being in London.

You know, I miss my kids the moment I get on a train, you know, even if they've been an absolute nightmare that morning. It's like a real instant thing for me these days.

I really love the little kind of networking, the little burgeoning networking thing that we started here at Tile Yard for Composers. That's something that I've wanted to do for five years and it's weird because I don't actually think I'm going to get any work out of it necessarily.

I mean I may do definitely get some collaborations out of it but I don't think I'm going to get any sort of any paid work. But it's again incredible to see the effort that people go to kind of come to it sort of. We've only done two so far, so I'm saying it like it's.

We've done a hundred of them but that's really cool. Because it feels cut, it feels kind of different and it feels kind of needed again. You know, with the kind of isolation thing in mind.

Even, even for me.

I mean, my colleague Will literally works next door, but we're still in separate rooms most of the time, you know, kind of staring at a computer screen or doing something completely isolated. So it's really nice to kind of hang out with other writers and other composers. I try.

And every networking event I try and get myself a bit cheed up for, you know, try and sort of really get into the zone of who's going to be there. And it's definitely getting harder though. The older I get, the more tired I get. It's definitely getting harder. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Helen Lyon: 00:34:12

I, I actually walked out of a networking the other day because I just, I suddenly. It was like a switch went off in my head and I just went, I'm going to leave now, I'm going to go. And I just went. And it's.

I think it's learning to read kind of. I think it was the person I was speaking to, I think he was thinking, not another composer.

And I just thought, you know, I don't feel like playing this game today.

And I just, I think as I've got older and my kids are getting older and there's more responsibility, I may be getting better at kind of thinking, I don't actually have to do this today, I can do it tomorrow. But today I'm not, I'm not in the zone. So self care, I think, I mean, I'm a runner. I don't make a secret of it.

I'm always sticking it on my Bloomin Instagram just because it's the one thing I do that kind of helps me to generally diffuse work and family.

It's like it does both, which is amazing, you know, if any of you got any particular self care routines or anything that you, you just might be having, you know, Dr. Wine, whatever it is. Anyone. Has anyone managed to carve any self care into their time management is what I'm asking.

Flo, I'm wondering whether you actually have. I think you've alluded to the fact. Possibly not really.

Florence Sabeva: 00:35:29

But I have to say one thing, especially the first months when my son was born, what I used to do is to go for walks. So even if during nap time or not, we just would go out and this was something.

I lived near the park so it's really easy for me to be kind of not in the woods. But yes, makes it. There was trees, there's like green Space very large.

So this is something that really helped me just a way also to kind of empty all the thinking, like. Yeah, just empty the mind, things like that.

Actually the second thing this has been more challenging is I love to go to the piano and just, you know, improvise. But very simple melodies. Like something kind of relaxing. Especially with my son. I started to write really kind of lullabies for him.

So I played them for him to go to sleep and it just soothes me as well. So I have recorded a couple of them and I just played on my. You know, I have a Bluetooth speaker and just play it and it relaxed me. The writing.

Obviously I don't have time just to go as much as I used to to go to the piano. But the time where I can do it, I try to do it and it's just actually helping me.

So these two things really being out in the nature and just improvising.

Helen Lyon: 00:37:00

I love that. So lovely sitting in a nice. That one of yours is actually still making music. That's your kind of way to relax. That's lovely. What about you, Jenny?

Jenny Plant: 00:37:10

I play netball. I play religiously every Monday and no one will stop me. As in like.

Helen Lyon: 00:37:23

It'S weird.

Jenny Plant: 00:37:24

It's one of those things where I'm like secretly competitive. Helen, I love that you run because I find running. I'm too in my head actually when I write.

I mean obviously you can listen to things but with net, with netball it's like great exercise but it's just like you're in the zone anyway. So I love that that's my self care on a Monday. Other times I think just actually because life is so hectic. It's it you're.

Because also like time management, you know, sometimes you want to work in the evenings and. And I do sometimes. But I think also the self care is stop working in an evening and put on while Rings of Power is on at the moment.

You know that's my. My current series or just like trying to go out for a drink with a friend.

You know it can be quite lonely as obviously what we do can be quite lonely. And I think sometimes it's important to just go out and like meet people like friends like De Stress or like. Yeah.

Time with my husband watching Rings of Power.

Helen Lyon: 00:38:26

Yeah, it's so important that you said that about stopping. It's just self care is. It doesn't have to be an activity.

It's just the thing saying to your brain stop, just stop now watch a program, have some time off. We've Been watching that Night Sleeper series and I watched it at the BBC. Oh, my goodness. So stressful. So, Ben, are you a netball player?

Florence Sabeva: 00:38:53

How do you.

Ben McAvoy: 00:38:55

Absolutely not, Helen. Absolutely not. No, no, no, no. I know, it's awful. No, I. No, it's funny. It's a really interesting topic. I. I wish I was. I.

I sort of exercise is really tricky at the moment. There's so little time and. And, you know, sort of. I sort of promised myself when I was younger that I wouldn't have ever have a desk job.

And actually that's exactly what I've got. Like, it sort of really only dawned on me the other day how static this job actually is. Like, it's very little movement during the day.

And so I sort of. Something that I'd love to change, but it really is sort of, you know, it's so intense. It's, you know, pretty much.

I mean, yesterday, for example, sort of the first break I took was at 4:30pm wow. So it's kind of really. It's. It's really full on and we normally have sort of, you know, seven or eight projects on the same time, so stuff.

This is sort of really back to back. It's kind of crazy and I love it that way. Like, it's not a bad thing, it's just that it's sort of. But I think.

I think the most important thing for me, I think, is remembering to take a break. And it sounds really. It sounds really simple, but for me, I can quite happily, sort of.

We're not quite happily, but I can quite easily fall into the trap of just working through the day, like just, you know, just constantly sort of getting stuff done because it always feels like there's something to do. And so I think for me it's sort of more. It's more remembering, I think.

I think moving here to Tagal has made a big difference in the sense that we've got these really lovely big windows in the studio, which is incredibly rare. I mean, really sort of sold this place to us, to be honest with you. And it sort of really connects us to outside.

It reminds us that there is a place beyond these walls.

But we're also really next door to the Hepworthy Gallery here in Wakefield, which has got a really lovely garden, like a really incredible, tiny, tiny little garden. But it's just absolutely beautiful. And so I think even sort of, for me, taking 10 minutes just to go and stand outside is.

Is a kind of really, really big deal, kind of a monumental thing, really.

And I think the Only other thing is just, and this sounds really nuts, but I think, I think having a slightly longer commute for me has made a huge difference, you know, so it takes me probably about 35, 40 minutes door to door to get from where I am here to get home. And I just sort of sit. My car's like my sanctuary. I love my car. Just sort of sit in silence.

I don't really listen to anything very or you know, occasionally sort of put a podcast on or something.

But really it's kind of, it's my quiet time between my decompression time between work and between home and I think I feel really, really lucky to be working in a, in a studio space. It's, it's. Yes, it's always been something that we've worked really hard to sort of try and maintain.

But yeah, it's, it's kind of one of these weird things that I didn't really anticipate would be a benefit of moving a studio to Wakefield of all places. It's not that far away from where I live in Leeds, but it's. Yeah, it's beautiful. Little 40 minute drive in silence.

There's no, there's no sort of kids putting on. What are they listening to at the moment?

Helen Lyon: 00:42:14

Descendants.

Ben McAvoy: 00:42:15

Oh, no, like bad. My kids are into nut stuff. Like Badadan by Chase and Status is like their track of the day and it's like my 4 year old would be like, you play bad.

And I have no idea where she's got this track title from. So yeah, none of that happens on my commute. It's always silence.

Helen Lyon: 00:42:33

I feel like as parents, I mean I was brought up on Genesis and Police because we never got to choose what we listened to in the car. Probably because we didn't have as much, you know, you had to physically own the stuff. But it was Police or Genesis and now I never get a look in.

I never get to listen to what I want. There's always whatever my kids want. They're like, oh, I feel like I've maybe lost the battle there.

I, you know, I feel like I should put my foot down, but it's just not working. That's really interesting. I think that 40 minutes, my studio is at home. So in order to get that escape. I suppose maybe that's why I run.

Because I take my 40 minutes and I go and run. Yeah. And then I come back and it's. It's the same thing.

It's that, it's that space and that time to think because my studio is next to My kitchen and my kids will come in from school and say, can I have a snack? Can I have whatever I need? This, that, the other. So, yeah, I think that's pretty interesting.

And self care doesn't have to be exercised by any stretch. It just needs to be time.

Ben McAvoy: 00:43:23

It should probably involve some form of exercise. I'm not going to lie. I think it should healthy living. But yeah, you probably are better off running than me sitting in my car. But it's.

Jenny Plant: 00:43:37

It's the mental health.

Helen Lyon: 00:43:38

It's the mental health.

Jenny Plant: 00:43:40

It absolutely is nothing.

Helen Lyon: 00:43:42

Yeah, I really think it is.

So before we close this discussion, which has been absolutely fascinating, you've said everything that I hoped and more I would love you all please too. And this is what Gareth always does at the end of the podcast. Going to go round, please. And we'll start with you, Flo.

If you could leave one item in the music room when you go, what item would you leave and why would you leave it?

Florence Sabeva: 00:44:06

Well, yes, actually I have my calendar with reminder on my phone. It's on my phone. So. And then I write lists as well. Every day, every evening.

Helen Lyon: 00:44:18

Yeah.

Florence Sabeva: 00:44:18

Of the things I have to do.

Helen Lyon: 00:44:19

Amazing.

Florence Sabeva: 00:44:20

So, yeah, there's a calendar remind. I need reminder for everything. So calendar reminder. And I could.

Everything in the calendar from what I'm going to do for breakfast, for lunch and for my. Okay. Time of self care. Whatever. Not self care, but everything.

Helen Lyon: 00:44:41

So.

Florence Sabeva: 00:44:42

Yeah.

Helen Lyon: 00:44:42

Amazing. Amazing. What about you, Jenny?

Jenny Plant: 00:44:45

Have you got an item? I've just looking to my. Right here. My red notebook. Yes, I'll leave my red notebook. I have it open at all times.

Helen Lyon: 00:44:55

Yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:44:55

In the day. And it's a list. It's got two sides. One's like a life side and a work side. And every day I, you know, because you know how like life is so hectic.

Like I'll suddenly be like working on a track and I'll be like, Ola's got a vaccination. I've got. I've got a book. It I got.

Or like, you know, I need to tell nursery about the holiday or, you know, and it's like you're back to the chords, you know, and so. And I know that those thoughts will just go otherwise. So I write everything down because I just have to write everything down. Yeah. Yeah.

That's amazing.

Helen Lyon: 00:45:36

Yeah, that is genius. So I have separate diaries, but I am going to do a page that is genuinely. Because my brain works just like that.

I'll be working around and be like, oh my God.

Florence Sabeva: 00:45:46

Oh yeah.

Helen Lyon: 00:45:46

Did I put that Slip in that bag. Did I borrow. That's exactly.

Florence Sabeva: 00:45:49

Yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:45:50

I tried it down.

Ben McAvoy: 00:45:51

When it.

Jenny Plant: 00:45:51

When that thought comes, it's got to be down.

Helen Lyon: 00:45:53

That is. That's amazing. What about you, Ben? What's your item?

Ben McAvoy: 00:45:58

I sort of thought it should be something more, you know, sort of inspirational than what I'm about to say. I think it's got to be my mobile phone. It has to be. You know, I think my. My relationship with my iPhone has evolved over the last nine years.

You know, it used to be sort of a business thing and it is still pretty much, you know, but it's this con. It's constantly being in communication. I think that's the really key thing. You know, it's the way my. My wife gets hold of me.

It's the way school get hold of me. It's the way that, you know, I have a sort of rotating photo in the background, which is just my kids. So every five minutes it changes.

And so it's really become kind of like quite a. Quite a fundamental part of my day just to sort of have it.

Helen Lyon: 00:46:43

Yeah.

Ben McAvoy: 00:46:44

With me. And it is all the work stuff as well. It's got the to do lists and the, you know, the kind of WhatsApp groups and all that kind of stuff.

But it's really in every part of my life, I guess, and I. I don't know what I do without it.

Helen Lyon: 00:46:56

Yeah, I think that's a really honest answer, actually. I think that's. We all rely so heavily and I think you're absolutely right. Definitely. And then the final one, this is more, I suppose, imaginative.

Here we're leaving a piece of advice. As parents, as creatives, as freelancers. Flo, could I start with you?

Do you have any pearls of wisdom or any advice that you would leave to somebody to do what we do?

Florence Sabeva: 00:47:22

I think maybe one piece of advice would be just like, give yourself the time as well to figure it out and just organize it. Don't put too pressure on yourself, because the first months that what I was doing, I was just like, oh, I need to work, I need to do this project.

And you burn out yourself. And you don't you want to do the long distance. So you have to make some choices at some point, what's your priority?

And try to find a way to cram as many possible in short amount of time. So be more efficient. But yes, Donald, I think, yeah. From pressure yourself.

Helen Lyon: 00:48:04

I think that's amazing advice and I would definitely take that on.

Jenny Plant: 00:48:08

Yeah.

Helen Lyon: 00:48:08

And I think that it's difficult. That goes for Everybody always, isn't it? It's so difficult. Absolutely. Just try to not feel pressure still now.

Florence Sabeva: 00:48:15

I try. I was just like, I need. Okay, now. Can't do everything all the time.

Helen Lyon: 00:48:21

Yes, absolutely. What about you, Ben? What's your advice?

Ben McAvoy: 00:48:25

I. I think I have. I sort of have two, if I may, really briefly. I think the first one is try not to feel guilty. It's pretty massive. This.

Because, to be very brief, because I think this is a whole other topic about guilt and working in creative industries and being a parent.

Helen Lyon: 00:48:44

That's the next podcast.

Jenny Plant: 00:48:45

Yeah, next episode.

Ben McAvoy: 00:48:46

I think on both sides of my life, like on the personal side and on the kind of parenting side, I'm always sort of in danger of feeling really guilty. Am I a good enough husband? Am I a good enough parent? Am I making the right decisions for my kids? Am I working too hard?

Am I here too much in the studio? Like with work as well. It's just a constant. It's constant imposter syndrome. You know, it's always like, am I. Do I. Am I any good at what I do?

So it's trying not to feel too guilty, I guess, in terms of both sides of the coin, really, I suppose. And then the second bit is just to set work boundaries. I always sort of joke with friends that if I wasn't married and didn't have kids that I just.

I'd be a workaholic. But I genuinely actually think that would be true. I think, I think I would find myself in the student 11pm most days.

And so I think, strangely, what's happened since having kids is it's kind of forced me to set those work boundaries in a really radically different way to what I was used to before. You know, my kids are kind of. They're sort of fairly interested in music, but they do not care what I do.

They're just not bothered about the projects that I work on. I mean, it's just not interesting to them at all. Even for my 9 year old, I thought I'd kind of reached the point where I was a cool dad.

She doesn't care. She's just not bothered. She's not phased at all. She just wants me to kind of be at home.

And I think that that's the really bizarre thing about this industry is that it consumes as much as you give it. And I think, again, linked to the not feeling guilty thing. You know, I love being a dad. Like, I'm proud of being a dad.

That's the most important part of my whole life, you know, it used to be that music was my baby and then there were babies and, you know, so it sort of weirdly shifts your whole perspective on life, doesn't it?

And I think that setting those work boundaries is massively important to me because otherwise it just consumes absolutely everything I've got to give it. Absolutely. That's my advice.

Helen Lyon: 00:50:48

And you're so right, it does. It's one of those things that it will just. You give more and it'll just ask for more.

And I think, because there's always more, there's always someone else doing something that you think you should be doing. And why haven't you done that yet?

Because our network's so vast, isn't it, in terms of so easy to just think, oh, I really should be doing that other thing that that person's doing, because then it will lead to that thing and then I should do. Yeah, I think that they're both excellent. I'm glad you've left both of those. We'll keep both. And then, Jenny, we're going to finish on you.

Jenny Plant: 00:51:17

All great points. And, you know, in a way similar to what Florence was saying, I think my piece of advice is to surrender to the chaos, basically.

You know, so many times, you know, I'll be completely honest, like, I get a call from nursery, oh, Ola's got a temperature, she's got to come home. And I'm like, like, this is not how today is supposed to be. But then you're like, but she's number one.

Helen Lyon: 00:51:43

Like, at the end of the day.

Jenny Plant: 00:51:44

Like, forget, like, if, you know, you really have to call up someone, say, I'm really sorry, but I need an extra day on this deadline. You know, you've got to surrender to that. And I think before we can put so much pressure on ourselves to get things done and be right.

But, you know, we're parents, you know, the kids. Number one. If all has got to take that day off nursery, you know, that's. That's the situation. And so, yeah, I think it's just, yeah.

Surrendering to the chaos on so many levels.

Florence Sabeva: 00:52:13

Yes.

Helen Lyon: 00:52:14

Yeah. An admission that it is chaos. Yeah.

Jenny Plant: 00:52:16

Oh, yeah.

Helen Lyon: 00:52:17

Admission that it is total chaos and then surrender to it. And then every day is different and we just have to absolutely go with it. Thank you so much. I've really, really enjoyed the conversation.

I think we've gone on for much longer than we all mentally, but I don't care because I feel like we talked about so many wonderful things. Thank you so much for giving your evening.

Thank you I really hope that people will listen to this and definitely take something away from it and maybe, you know, find that they feel very, very similar in many cases. So thank you so much to all three of you and thanks for listening.

Gareth Davies: 00:52:56

Thanks for listening to the Music Room podcast today. If you'd like to know more about the show or the community that surrounds it, head tomusic room.community. the link is in the show notes.