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Episode 29

Alex Attwood & Grace Meadows talk about mental health in the music industry

Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.

This episode of the Music Room podcast is dedicated to Mental Health Awareness Week, focusing on the mental health challenges faced by individuals working in the music industry. Gareth chats with composer Alex Attwood and head of charity Music Minds Matter Grace Meadows.

Host: Gareth Davies

Produced by Gareth Davies at The Sound Boutique.

Links

Alex’s website

Music Minds Matter

Connect with Gareth

Find out more about the Music Room community

Transcript
Gareth:

Welcome to the music room.

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At this time in the music room.

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Alex Attwood: I used to go to

London all the time, go out for

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coffees, everyone was very nice, you

know, loads of stuff fell through.

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Maybe some of it was personal, maybe some

of it was circumstantial, I don't know.

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But in the end I kind of went, 20

production companies can't all be wrong.

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At which point I kind of went, well look,

actually this library is really lovely and

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I am still writing music, so just do that.

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Grace Meadows: you know, the sense

of control, autonomy, agency, and

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all of these things are critical

to positive mental health.

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The idea that you've got some, some

ability to control what's happening

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around you with the knowledge

that you can't control everything.

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That's, that's really important.

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Gareth: Hello, and welcome to the music

green, the show where I usually chat with

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music industry professionals, about what

they're up to before going back in time

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to find out how it all began for them.

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I say usually because

this episode is different.

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Y because this is mental

health awareness week.

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Let me ask you a question.

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How has working in the music industry,

whether you're a composer, a songwriter.

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Uh, musician a mix or mastering

engineer at a label, whatever it

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is, how has working in the music

industry affected your mental health?

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It's a question that we perhaps

don't ask ourselves often enough.

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I've wanted to make a special episode

around mental health for a long time.

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And recently I felt like there were a lot

of people in the music industry who are

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perhaps more aware of their own struggles.

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So if you're listening to

this, having experienced mental

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health issues of your own.

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Then this is for you.

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If you've listened to this episode

and recognize that perhaps you might

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need to explore your own mental health

further, then this is also for you.

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I'm going to look at the terminology

surrounding mental health and some

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of the diagnosed mental health

conditions or disorders as they're

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sometimes known, uh, and in return,

I'd like you to consider the question.

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Does that sound like me?

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And if it does start thinking about

what you can do to either seek, help or

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improve your mental health in some way.

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And believe me when I say

you're certainly not alone.

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Being a composer songwriter

or musician, for instance.

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Often involves long

stretches and isolation.

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And one of today's guests is going

to talk about their experiences of

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that in more depth, that guest is

Alex Atwood, a composer specializing

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in production library, music.

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My other guest today is Grace

Meadows, head of music minds matter.

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Uh, for those of you who don't

know what music minds matter is,

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their tagline is always have mental

health support in your pocket.

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And grace is going to explain

what they do way better than

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I can in a few minutes time.

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But if you work in music and are

struggling to cope or know someone

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who is, you can talk to music

minds matter, it doesn't have

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to be a crisis or about music.

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They're here to listen,

support and help at any time.

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Right.

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Let's have a look at what it all means.

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I sometimes hear people describe having

mental health issues as suffering from

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mental health, which when you think about

it, it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

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You wouldn't say suffering

from physical health.

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So I want to get that out straight away,

because if we're having a conversation,

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it's important to get these things right.

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And to look past the catch-all

term of mental health.

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Oh, okay.

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From the world health organization,

they have key facts on their website.

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One in every eight people in the

world live with a mental disorder.

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I'm not sure I like the word

disorder, but that's what they use.

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Uh, mental disorders involve

significant disturbances in thinking

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emotional regulation or behavior.

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There are many different

types of mental disorders.

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Effective prevention and

treatment options exist.

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And most people don't have

access to effective care.

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And so that last point, I think in the

UK, there are certainly organizations

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you can reach out to one being music

minds matter as I've already mentioned.

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Uh, they list disorders as anxiety

disorders, depression, bipolar disorder.

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Post-traumatic stress disorder,

schizophrenia, eating disorders.

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disruptive behavior and

the social disorders.

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And neurodevelopmental disorders.

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So they go on.

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Who's at risk from

developing a mental disorder.

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At any one time, a diverse set

of individual family, community,

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and structural factors.

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May combine to protect or

undermine mental health.

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Although most people are resilient.

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People who are exposed

to adverse circumstances,

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including poverty, violence.

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Disability and inequality.

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Are at higher risk.

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Protective and risk factors

include individual psychological

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and biological factors.

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Uh, such as emotional

skills as well as genetics.

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And I find that really interesting

because although it mentions genetics

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there at the end, Some things

can be passed down, obviously.

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It leads with a variety of factors

combining to create a scenario where

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your mental health can be affected.

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And anyone who sat in a studio for

months at a time writing and recording

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their best work, often emailing a

networking to a wall of silence.

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That to me, sounds like you

could be vulnerable to mental

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health issues popping up.

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Okay.

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So that's a bit of background to

what I'm looking at in this episode.

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But before we get into the music

room, let's have some music stories.

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I asked the music green Facebook group.

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How has being a composer, songwriter,

or musician affected your mental health?

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Uh, there were replies and some agreed

to have their replies read out now.

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I'm not going to mention names

outside of the Facebook group, just

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to maintain that trust and support

within the music green community.

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First one reads I'm currently

living with chronic illness that

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is at times hugely limiting.

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Over the last couple of months for

the first time, it's affecting my

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ability to write music and work

for any significant length of time.

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And this is heartbreaking for me.

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In the past, I've had anxiety and

depression and realized at the time

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that it was in part due to taking a

long career break from writing music.

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Once I started up again,

everything changed.

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It turns out I need to compose

to keep me level and happy.

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Now I'm anxious about what will happen

to both my career and mental health.

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If I don't get physically better soon.

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Next I'm write music and

books to aid my mental health.

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Unfortunately only have to do it as a

hobby rather than rely on for income.

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I've been three dark moments in my life

and I've survived to tell the story.

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That's great.

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Please reach out as everyone here in

the group is here to help each other.

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And that's really nice of you to say.

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Uh, lastly, I was diagnosed

with bipolar when I was 30.

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I have a rare kind in which

I only suffer with highs.

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I say suffer, but the truth is one or two

highs have helped me produce my best work.

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That's interesting.

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As long as one is mindful of what

triggers them and takes the medication

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consistently and follows doctor's orders.

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There is absolutely no reason

why they can't live a full and

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wonderful life medication for

life, and also happy to talk.

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Should anyone wish to.

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That goes to show doesn't it that

you don't have to be at a critical

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point to address these things.

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And in that case, recognizing

what the issue was.

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Has helped them.

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It's also one of the things I love

about the music room community.

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Everyone is so thoughtful, even when

they're talking about themselves.

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So music reamers, thanks for

turning up and taking part.

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I really appreciate it.

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And those are today's music stories.

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Composer and multi-instrumentalist

Alex Atwood is known for his

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versatile and atmospheric use

of live and electronic music.

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Creating scores that enhance

and compliment in any production

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commissions include the longest reign,

top gear Caribbean with Simon Reeve.

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Oh, that's great.

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Rivers, dispatches and master chef.

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Great Meadows is the new head of charity

music minds matter and is called upon

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people across the music industry to

widen the mental health profession

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across the full spectrum of roles.

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Evolving out of the

charity help musicians.

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Music minds matter began in 2017

as a 24 hour helpline for music

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industry workers to call for support

and help while this helpline is

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still a key part of the offering.

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It's now charity in its own.

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Right.

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With big plans for expansion.

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I was blown away by the

Canada of Alex and grace.

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It's made me think about

my own working day.

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So let's get into the music cream

and hear what they have to say.

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Composer Alex Atwood and head

of Music Minds Matter, Grace

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Meadows, welcome to the music room.

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Alex Attwood: Thank you very

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much.

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Grace Meadows: thank you.

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Gareth: Grace, let's start with you.

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As I mentioned there, you're

the head of Music Minds Matter,

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which is part of Help Musicians.

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Tell us a little bit about the

organisation and your role within that.

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Grace Meadows: Great, yes.

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So Music Minds Matter is the sister

charity of Help Musicians, which has been

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running for over a hundred years, and

it does what it says on the tin, really.

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It helps musicians, and it helps

them, um, at challenging moments,

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throughout their musical lives,

but it also helps them to flourish.

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And to help them be the

musicians that they aspire to be.

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And of course, success looks

different for everybody.

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So we think very much about what that

musician or creator wants to achieve

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in their career and we, and we support

them as, as best as we possibly can.

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So that comes with all kinds of

different advice that we provide,

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whether it's business advice, whether

it's health or welfare advice.

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But what we noticed around 2017

was that we were receiving more and

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more, Inquiries about the support

for mental health needs of musicians.

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And that was a trend that

was coming to us as well from

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across the industry as a whole.

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And so we set up a program within Help

Musicians called Music Minds Matter.

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And what we realized was actually it

needed to be its own thing because

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of the scale and the challenge that

was being presented to us around

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mental health and the music industry.

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So a couple of years ago, um,

it broke away and became its

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own charity, but it's very much.

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Connected into into help musicians.

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So if you're a musician and you're

coming to us with a mix of issues

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mental health might be one of those,

then you'll be channeled into Music

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Minds Matter and and vice versa.

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If you come to Music Minds Matter and

actually the support you can access

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from help musicians, then You're very

much signposted that, but Music Minds

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Matter, the big point of difference

between that and Help Musicians is that

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Music Minds Matter is here for everybody

working in the music ecosystem, because

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we can't just single out one group of

people or one strand of the industry.

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Because, mental health belongs to us all.

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And so actually, in just supporting

one group or one segment, we're not

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really tackling the challenge that

we're facing around mental health.

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And so whilst we provide services,

we're also working to change

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culture around mental health.

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And for us to be able to have

conversations around mental health,

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where people feel safe to do so.

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But also for the industry as a whole

to be putting mental health much more

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stage when it comes to working practices

the way that we want this industry to

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be understood, uh, in terms of how it's

supporting the people that help it thrive.

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Gareth: And, of course, one of

the great things about Music

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Minds Matter is the accessibility.

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You know, if you are a PRS for Music

member, you can access free counselling.

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So it's as simple as that.

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You know, you can get

in touch straight away.

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So that accessibility, I

think, is really important.

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is fantastic and really important as well.

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Alex, you're a composer.

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Uh, I try not to pigeonhole you,

but you have become quite the

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expert in production library music.

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Yeah.

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Alex Attwood: I've done in the

last sort of five, 10 years now.

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Gareth: So give us a little background

about how you became a composer in

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the first place and how did you end up

concentrating on production music in

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Alex Attwood: Um, so I

started at university.

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I saw it very much as a platform for, for.

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Writing and playing funk music, basically,

um, albeit with a massive student debt.

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I didn't really think it

through and it was wonderful.

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I ran a 10 piece funk band for four

years and it was like a giant family.

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Uh, then uni finished and I

just moved into DJing, playing

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lots of jazz function bands.

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And, uh, it was a nice way of life

and I got engaged when I was about 24.

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And as I was coming in from work, my

fiance was getting up to go to college.

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Uh, about four nights a

week, mornings a week.

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And I didn't think that that was conducive

to a happy marriage moving forward.

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So I was sort of rattling my brain as

to how to make music work for me, but

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in a way that might actually dovetail

into family life and, um, yeah, sort

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of composing popped up as an option

and I spent about two years, just

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Presumably what everyone else did just

writing demos desperately trying to

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get work from anywhere Landed a couple

of lucky corporates and uh, and then

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spent a whole year I must have sent off

about 300 dvds that were tailor made

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for different companies I'd researched

and they all used to get individual

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postcards I had three rejection emails

out of the 300 and no other responses.

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It was, it wasn't quite soul destroying.

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Interestingly, the soul destroying

part of the career came later because

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I was young and enthusiastic at that

point, and I evidently had enough there.

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Hutzpah, just to keep going, and out

of nowhere I landed a Disney cartoon

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from a company I'd not even approached.

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You know, you make your own luck, I guess.

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You know, the universe answered me in

some peculiar way, and that was lovely.

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So I did a couple of cartoon

series with Disney and a couple of

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subsidiaries, and just as that was

kicking off, we got hit by:

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All sorts of things got cancelled,

including everything I was working on.

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Coincided with us moving from

Edinburgh to Herefordshire,

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which is obviously very rural.

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Um, wasn't a whole lot of sort of music

stuff going on, and I certainly hadn't

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got the wherewithal to go looking for it.

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Because I've never had to, it

had always been on my doorstep.

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And I think that's something

that I've really taken home

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after, you know, a long time now.

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Is You've got to realize what

it is that you need early on

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and know how to look for it.

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But it's easy to say now.

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So yeah, I did a bit of library work,

managed to get a BBC job and then

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spent about five, six years doing

BBC documentaries and travel docs.

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Uh, and it was great.

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Um, for one reason or another,

that petered out, people moved

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departments, different budgets

went, it's the way of the world.

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And.

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I ended up back with the library that

I'd done work for and have a very

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good relationship with the UK MD.

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And that's all I've done

for about five, six years.

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And it's lovely.

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He's a super guy.

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I like everyone in the team.

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The music is diverse.

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I get to write everything from sort of big

band Latin to string quartets to country.

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It's yeah, it's, it's a good way of life.

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I do enjoy it.

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Um, it has its drawbacks,

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which is why we're here.

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Gareth: indeed.

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We'll get on to that.

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Absolutely.

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But yeah, to have one main client,

that's, that's quite something, isn't it?

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Alex Attwood: Well, interestingly,

they have always encouraged

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me to diversify there.

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It's not like they, uh, say

don't work for no one else.

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And I've, I've looked for work with other

libraries and it's either not appealed to

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me or not appealed to the other library.

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Wow.

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Gareth: you found your library, you know,

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Alex Attwood: it's a well fitting suit.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's it.

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Gareth: brilliant.

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Grace, you heard the music stories in

today's episode about, uh, there was

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one about living with chronic illness.

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There was writing music and books to aid

mental health and being bipolar and only

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suffering the highs, which is unusual.

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What do you see in your role as the

main mental health challenges in

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the music sector and the impacts

actually of those challenges on

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professional and personal life?

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Yeah,

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Grace Meadows: Well, I thought all of

those comments that we received were

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fascinating and I think what they touch

upon is, uh, all of them is, and, and

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also we've also mentioned them here

already is, the pressure to always be on.

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So it's an industry where if you're

not there at the gig, either in person

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or online, someone else will be.

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And I certainly found

that when I was studying.

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Um, and there were lots of pressures

about how you turn up, being

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perfect, um, getting it right.

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Being invited back.

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That is, that is hard.

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That performance element.

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And, and I don't think that's

unique to just to musicians.

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I think that is in any role, especially

when so much of the industry is

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structured around a freelance basis.

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So,

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Gareth: the word freelance.

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Yeah.

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Grace Meadows: yeah.

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You're only as good as

your last gig, right?

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It's a different setup when you're in a

PAYE environment and there's structures

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and there's processes in place.

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But actually, if you're freelance

and, you think you've turned in some

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great work, but actually they don't

like it for whatever reason, then

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that's kind of, out of your control.

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And so there are lots of things that

then span out of that, whether it's, you

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know, the sense of control, autonomy,

agency, and all of these things are

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critical to positive mental health.

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The idea that you've got some, some

ability to control what's happening

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around you with the knowledge

that you can't control everything.

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That's, that's really important.

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But I think what accompanies, you

All of that is the stress and the

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burnout that comes with that perpetual

need to be on, to be visible,

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to be ready, to be responsive.

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But also the anxiety that that

can bring and then the depression

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that comes with that, you know.

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But we've all got a little bit of elastic

in us and we know when we can give a

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little bit more and then pull back and

go, actually I can take the foot off the

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gas a little bit at the moment because

I know this is coming along the way.

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line and I probably need to save

myself a bit for that, but actually

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when that elastic is constantly being

stretched, it's going to lose that,

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that ability to be tense and you're

going to find yourself collapsing.

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So I think that those are some really,

really key, key things that we're

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being presented with at the moment.

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And then of course, you know, what

that does over time, you know, as

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humans, we expect to experience stress.

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It's an innate Feeling within us is

what's kept us alive as a species, you

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know, to be able to ward off threats,

but It's when those stressors become

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chronic and they're having detrimental

impacts on our well being that we're

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moving into different territory around

our mental health and our well being.

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And it's when they escalate and there's,

behaviors that are, uh, really unhealthy

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that accompany that or find that actually

it becomes a really acute condition.

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So, I think overall, having come back

from the pandemic and now in this

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cost of living crisis, we thought

things might be slightly different.

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But actually, I think there's this panic

to do things really well, constantly on.

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And then, as I say, the anxiety and

depression that comes with that,

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and the stress and the burnout.

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And of course, then, you know,

the isolation and loneliness

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that that can give rise to.

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You might not want to talk

about any of these things.

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And so you can feel very alone,

which again, just perpetuates things.

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So it's really easy to find yourself and,

and other people actually in spirals.

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Gareth: Yeah, yeah, I'm certainly right.

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talking of isolation, Alex, you

have experienced this, haven't you?

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Can you describe for us what mental

health issues you've experienced?

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Can you actually pinpoint when you

started to experience these issues as

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well as maybe identify why they started?

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Alex Attwood: Yeah.

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So Grace speaks so eloquently

about it, actually.

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I think I probably learned more in

the last five minutes than the last

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20 years about my own predicament.

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Um, I think the bit that, just to get

back to what Grace was saying about

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the people accessing the services that

she's offering with Music Minds Matter

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and Help Musicians is, I think even if

you're accessing them, That in itself

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shows a sort of self awareness, which I

think a lot of people could really use

377

:

more of, including myself, certainly.

378

:

I think a big issue I suffered from

was that I simply didn't have the

379

:

emotional wherewithal to realize

that I had become incredibly

380

:

isolated, that I was stressed out.

381

:

I was looking at everything in

a very black and white manner.

382

:

I'm married, I'm healthy, I have friends.

383

:

What's the problem?

384

:

Come on, pull yourself together, man.

385

:

It's just a bit of work.

386

:

And so to answer your question, I first

noticed it was after we moved rurally

387

:

in Herefordshire and the work had dried

up from:

388

:

away, making demos and doing this and

that, but I was basically creating smoke

389

:

and mirrors, not to pretend I was working

because I genuinely felt like I ought to

390

:

do something, but actually it was just So

that I felt that I was doing something.

391

:

And, um, increasingly I used to find

myself sort of sitting on the stairs.

392

:

Three hours at a time, just

with my head in my hands.

393

:

And rather than going alarm bells, I'd

sort of get up and go, Right, that's

394

:

sitting on the stairs taken care of.

395

:

Let's go and sit outside for a bit.

396

:

And feel miserable there.

397

:

Again, without really thinking,

Oh, this is a problem.

398

:

And it came to a head.

399

:

I think my wife came back and went

like, you could just get a job and

400

:

maybe earn some money and go and meet

some people, get some self esteem.

401

:

And this was an absolute anathema

because I'd already decided that

402

:

I was a full time composer and I

hadn't realized how much of my self

403

:

worth I'd poured into that construct.

404

:

And to have the, this fragile

construct shaken about like

405

:

that turned into what we.

406

:

Described as mug gate.

407

:

I was so angry with her, I threw

my mug of coffee into a tree.

408

:

Gareth: Oh no!

409

:

Alex Attwood: it was, that was a

point at which we sort of looked

410

:

at each other and went, I think

there's a bit of an issue here.

411

:

That's, that's not okay, is it?

412

:

I was like, no, I'm sorry about that.

413

:

That's, right, that's a thing.

414

:

So, I think I sought

counselling after that.

415

:

And, but again, rather than looking at

the um, sort of professional aspect of

416

:

it, we just sort of looked at everything.

417

:

Because I mean, you know, we're

all victims of our own circumstance

418

:

if you choose to look for it.

419

:

Thanks.

420

:

And it's only really been in the

last sort of year or two that I've

421

:

gone, Uh, I've worked on my own for

20 years and we live really rurally.

422

:

And I quite often go

for full days at a time.

423

:

In fact, frankly, full weeks at a time.

424

:

Where between, you know, nine and

four, I won't speak to anyone.

425

:

I won't see anyone.

426

:

There's no one to nudge and say, Oh,

have you just seen spectrosonics?

427

:

I've just done the latest update

or, Oh, I've just written a

428

:

really, really bad four bars.

429

:

That's taken me three hours.

430

:

What a klutz.

431

:

There's no feedback.

432

:

So it's not even an echo

chamber because there's no echo.

433

:

It's just nothing.

434

:

And, So without wishing to be unhelpful,

I feel, I feel lucky because I've

435

:

had regular work and that's lovely.

436

:

So I haven't had the anxieties

that, that Grace was talking of,

437

:

and there's certainly been points

at which I have worried very much

438

:

for what I'm going to do for money.

439

:

But actually, you know, I've

been so, so lucky with my

440

:

publishing company and library.

441

:

They've been brilliant.

442

:

But what I have only just realized is that

Actually, you, you do need to be around

443

:

other people for a portion of the day.

444

:

You need, you need feedback.

445

:

I, I would find myself going

into social situations, you

446

:

know, maybe once or twice a week.

447

:

And I've almost lost

the art of conversation.

448

:

You forget.

449

:

You'll say something in a jokey

manner, and then wildly overthink

450

:

it afterwards because you've

not really had any practice.

451

:

So you start to lose your sense

of, well, confidence, I guess.

452

:

I even got social anxiety, which is

not something I've ever had before.

453

:

And I know it's reasonably common,

but it's not something I'd had.

454

:

And, say, it's just Solitude.

455

:

And the big hurdle for

me was admitting it.

456

:

People have hangups

about different things.

457

:

I've never been ashamed

to say I'm out of work.

458

:

I haven't got any money, or I'm not

feeling very well, or I've failed at

459

:

something, or I've upset somebody.

460

:

A big hangup for me took me about

15 years to say, I'm lonely.

461

:

That was about the hardest

thing I'd ever had to admit.

462

:

And it sounded all the

stranger to me because.

463

:

I do have friends and I

do have a loving family.

464

:

So I couldn't really work out any

of the very sort of British thing

465

:

of, well, well better not make a

fuss then, because actually the

466

:

architecture of my life is fairly robust.

467

:

So, um, maybe there isn't a problem,

but it's got to the point where.

468

:

I can't, I can't deny there's a problem

and it's not fair to those around me

469

:

to deny that there's a problem, you

know, we have to accept it in order

470

:

that I can do something about it.

471

:

And it's lovely because I do talk about

it a lot more and, uh, interestingly

472

:

that has encouraged quite a few other

friends of mine who I thought were in

473

:

a perfectly normal situation to go, Oh,

actually I work on my own and it's fine.

474

:

Really, really, really hard.

475

:

And it's making me a not

nice person to my family.

476

:

And it's, um, it's a

bit of a taboo, I think.

477

:

Um,

478

:

Gareth: enough, it was only in preparing

for this episode that I realized, um,

479

:

because I started podcasting in, uh, 2019.

480

:

And that was its own

project, but I continued.

481

:

And obviously the pandemic happened

and I started a podcast in order to

482

:

just, you know, have a little window

to the world and keep conversations

483

:

going with creative people.

484

:

But it's only preparing for this episode

that I realize it's because I'm isolated.

485

:

That's why I have podcasts.

486

:

That's, that's why we, you know,

we're having a nice conversation

487

:

now we can see each other.

488

:

And I love that, you know, it, keeps.

489

:

the wolf from the door, or you

know, whatever you want to call it.

490

:

In the Music Room community, we have

a regular weekly cuppa, cuppa and

491

:

chat it's called, and um, it's usually

nine o'clock on a Thursday morning,

492

:

and we just talk absolute nonsense.

493

:

But it is that kind of office

feeling, Grace, you're in your

494

:

office now, but We're not.

495

:

We're in a

496

:

room by ourselves.

497

:

And, uh, it's just a nice thing

to do to even if it's online, you

498

:

know, it's, um, it's nice to have a

499

:

Grace Meadows: I think, I think what

you're both tapping into is what it

500

:

means to be human and we are inherently

social creatures So we need that contact.

501

:

We need that feedback.

502

:

We need to be able to sense check how

we're viewing the world through other

503

:

people's eyes We need that stimulation

That challenge and if we don't get it you

504

:

suddenly it gives rise to stuff that It's

almost like it has a breeding ground.

505

:

Gareth: Yeah,

506

:

Grace Meadows: Because you've

got nobody challenging that.

507

:

So,

508

:

Alex Attwood: well then you do echo

the, you develop the echo chamber of

509

:

your own sort of self doubt because

there's no one to challenge you on it.

510

:

Grace Meadows: No, and one of the ways

that really sort of resonates with

511

:

me on the loneliness is I remember

sitting for hours and hours in basement

512

:

practice rooms at music college.

513

:

And thinking, what is

the meaning of my life?

514

:

I've now practiced this movement between

E and D flat on the bassoon so many

515

:

times that I can't feel my fingers.

516

:

What is the meaning of life?

517

:

You know, why am I doing this?

518

:

What difference, what impact

am I having on the world?

519

:

And what contribution am I, am I having?

520

:

And I think that they're the kind of

existential big life questions that

521

:

can sort of get in on you, which

I think are good to talk about.

522

:

think about, but actually if you're

not able to voice them and share

523

:

them with other people, they can

give rise to serious anxiety.

524

:

You know, you're sitting there

practicing fingerings and thinking,

525

:

what difference am I going to make to

the world by learning how to do this?

526

:

You know, that really can shake you to

the core and make you feel really anxious.

527

:

And then it's only years later when I'm

sitting in a music therapy clinic room

528

:

and I'm like, well, I can play that

529

:

transition really easily.

530

:

I mean, no one else knows that, but

there's this tiny kind of, it's worth

531

:

all those hours of isolation, but you

know, was it, you know, so there's

532

:

just the, the isolation can really

be quite a fertile breeding ground.

533

:

And, and that's why I think the contact

with other people is so important so

534

:

that you can sort of reign that in and,

and keep it safe, you know, because

535

:

it is important to think about those

big things, but not all the time.

536

:

That's, you know, you've

got to stay present.

537

:

Alex Attwood: I think you've got to be

smart because, the nature of what we do.

538

:

I mean, look behind me.

539

:

I'm, I'm a noise making explosion.

540

:

Nothing in this room.

541

:

Is conducive to having other people in the

room with me trying to, trying to work.

542

:

It's a nightmare, you know, I'm

either going to be bashing, hitting,

543

:

strumming or doing something.

544

:

Therefore, in order to keep up that social

interaction that we need so much, you've

545

:

got to think ahead of the curve and go,

right, well, look, I probably can't have

546

:

someone in this room with me right now.

547

:

I can't, you know, if you're in a

solicitor's office, you could talk to

548

:

other solicitors about soliciting things.

549

:

I can't talk to her about the latest, API

:

550

:

what I'd love to do, just for a little bit

of time, not all day, but just for a bit.

551

:

So you've got to set up that little

meeting, or, and that's what your

552

:

coffee mornings are so brilliant

553

:

Gareth: Oh, I've been bored so

senseless by compressor talk.

554

:

Honestly.

555

:

You'd be

556

:

Alex Attwood: I could be that guy!

557

:

I would love to bore you!

558

:

Gareth: I was going to ask you,

Alex, is, you mentioned about after

559

:

Muggate, uh, the tree incident,

um, that you did seek counselling.

560

:

Did that unlock anything for you?

561

:

Were there massive revelations?

562

:

Was it stuff you already knew?

563

:

How did that all go?

564

:

Alex Attwood: Um, I think because

I just hadn't associated where I

565

:

was at mentally, um, with work.

566

:

I just tied it all up with, you know, my

rather fortunate middle class background

567

:

and dived in there for about a week.

568

:

Well, for however many sessions of

counselling I had, and it really

569

:

wasn't until, well I'm 43 now, I

said it, it probably took me until I

570

:

was 41 to go, Ah, maybe being on my

own's not good for me, because I like

571

:

people, I like being around people.

572

:

And that's what I mean about the scales

falling, and for me the biggest hurdle was

573

:

realising that that was, I mean I'm not

saying it's the issue, but it's certainly,

574

:

you know, you control the variables.

575

:

And we all need things to live, thrive

and survive, and one of those important

576

:

things is, you know, you sleep well.

577

:

Try not to drink too much alcohol,

and you try and be around people

578

:

who, if, if not at least make you

feel good about being yourself,

579

:

remind you what it is to be human.

580

:

And, as Grace was saying, it's

an inherently, lonely and vulnera

581

:

vulnerabilizing, vulnerabilizing,

uh, career, because there's,

582

:

there's no structure to it.

583

:

You don't enter at level one

musician, level one gigging, level

584

:

two composing, level three mild fame.

585

:

It's complete free fall.

586

:

So you're making your own rules.

587

:

Therefore you have to bounce off

other people who are in the same

588

:

experience just to be able to compare

notes and to say, Oh God, your middle

589

:

finger drop off after you practice

going from F to D for three hours.

590

:

Yes.

591

:

All right.

592

:

But then I did a gig.

593

:

And I nailed it.

594

:

So it was worth it.

595

:

And so it gives, it

contextualizes everything.

596

:

I remember my brother who's

a medic saying to me 10 years

597

:

ago, I don't know how you do it.

598

:

He's like, not only do not know how

much you're going to get paid at the

599

:

end of every quarter, but there's

also no metric with which to assess

600

:

how you're doing in your career.

601

:

You can't say I've got, I've got

band H I'm on 25, 000 pounds a year.

602

:

I'm aspiring to get here.

603

:

You could be writing the best music in

the world and no one's listening, or

604

:

it's brilliant to you and no one cares.

605

:

Or you could be writing music

with boxing gloves and on BBC

606

:

every day making millions.

607

:

It's, I mean,

608

:

Gareth: to that.

609

:

Grace Meadows: There's, there's

two really, really big themes

610

:

that you've just, uh, touched on.

611

:

One is the precarious nature of this

thing that we call love music and having

612

:

a life with it and working with it.

613

:

And, the other is how we measure

success and what success looks like.

614

:

And, I think as an industry, we have

a duty of care for those coming into

615

:

it to have conversations with them

about what success looks like for them.

616

:

So I think in the way Alex,

you were talking about, working

617

:

out what you need as a person.

618

:

I think that's one of the, one

of the first things that you can

619

:

do a preventative step you can

do is try and we think we know

620

:

ourselves and then, you know, mug

gate happens and you go, Oh, hello.

621

:

Hi.

622

:

Oh, where have you come from?

623

:

You know,

624

:

Alex Attwood: guy?

625

:

Grace Meadows: but you know, I

think there's something about

626

:

doing that reflective And I don't

think that that's airy fairy.

627

:

I think that is about having a level

of emotional and psychological maturity

628

:

that helps you navigate the world.

629

:

So there's that piece of work, but there's

also alongside that of what would success

630

:

look like in my eyes for me and would

help me feel like I'm winning at things.

631

:

Not necessarily winning at life,

but winning at things because

632

:

there's lots of ways to win at life.

633

:

So I think there is a duty of care to

be had around how do we help people

634

:

think about what success looks like.

635

:

As you say, Alex, when there's no

structures there and you know, one day

636

:

you can be gigging and it can be the

best thing and you're on the road for

637

:

ages and you're having a great time, but

then whoa, All of those gigs dry up and

638

:

you've got to go back into the studio,

but actually you can't afford the studio.

639

:

So, you know, that kind of

precarious nature of it sort of

640

:

goes hand in hand with what success

looks like because success for

641

:

most people isn't a steady thing.

642

:

So it's being able to find a way to

hold on to your core, I guess, so that

643

:

you can navigate that precariousness

and the ups and downs of what your

644

:

success looks like because Nothing is

645

:

ever constant.

646

:

That's the thing, isn't it?

647

:

Alex Attwood: way of looking at it.

648

:

And if I'm honest, I don't think other

than putting food on the table and the

649

:

kind of the natural aspirations of having

a young family, I'd never really got

650

:

much further than going what I'd like

to provide and I'd like to write music.

651

:

I would love to have done more telly

stuff and as, and when that became

652

:

apparent that it wasn't happening,

you kind of shift the goalposts.

653

:

But I don't think as an actual framed

question, what does that look like?

654

:

Uh, I'd certainly never thought about it.

655

:

It was funny you saying hello, who's this

guy who suddenly walked in, something

656

:

did change at that point, I wasn't

just sort of sitting on the stairs

657

:

feeling miserable, I also got angry,

I'd get angry in the car, on my own,

658

:

in ways that I'd never done before.

659

:

And it became like a

third person in the room.

660

:

never to that extent again.

661

:

But certainly, I'd never been

angry about anything before.

662

:

And now, sort of 15, 18 years

on, that guy's still there.

663

:

He's a lot quieter, but he's still there.

664

:

And I'd, I'd, I'd love to shush him

up a little bit more at some point.

665

:

Gareth: You have, I mean, to an extent

you've actually both answered my next

666

:

question, which was going to be what

strategies would you give for coping

667

:

with the challenges that can happen?

668

:

Alex Attwood: I've got two.

669

:

I, I, I

670

:

Gareth: Well, I was going to say, if you

have additional things to say, of course.

671

:

Oh, I'm sorry.

672

:

Alex Attwood: talked about your

coffees and you're chatting with peers.

673

:

So, you know, it's lovely to have

people who love you, but they,

674

:

they don't really want to know the

intricacies of your job all the time.

675

:

And that is very reasonable.

676

:

It's pretty boring.

677

:

So the two bits I've got are firstly,

get other day jobs or volunteering.

678

:

So I've done quite a lot of different

volunteering, over the last 10, 15 years.

679

:

And it was a bit like going to church

when you're a kid, you kind of slightly

680

:

drag your feet on the way there going,

then you do it and it's not that bad.

681

:

And then you walk out going, either

because that's it over for another

682

:

week or because you actually really

enjoyed it and got something out of it.

683

:

And it's lovely.

684

:

You just need the diversity of experience.

685

:

And just to remember, you're not

the only person in the world.

686

:

It's good just to get a different breath

of air and to remember, you know, you're

687

:

not the only person who bad things

or good things have happened to you.

688

:

It's really nice.

689

:

And actually even.

690

:

Side hustles.

691

:

So I have done quite a lot of carpentry

and furniture making And different jobs

692

:

and the more you do the more you get

out and it's lovely and I find the more

693

:

It's not the more time I spend out of

the studio It just makes coming back to

694

:

the studio more of a pleasure because

you miss it It feels like a drudge.

695

:

But the other thing I was gonna say is so

it's really essential Own your decisions.

696

:

So it's really, really hard to make it

in any kind of artistic career because

697

:

of all the sort of, you know, the

lack of direct, um, well, directions

698

:

and, as we were talking about.

699

:

I often wondered, well, at what

point do you just say, maybe

700

:

I'm just not very good at this.

701

:

I, I I'd like to think the world's

not ready for me, but maybe I

702

:

literally, I'm just not that guy

to do this thing at this time.

703

:

And if you do just, just

own it and go, cool.

704

:

Well, that's all right.

705

:

So I'm going to take what I've got and

what I want to give, put it elsewhere.

706

:

I'm still the same person.

707

:

Or you can say, no, I am going to keep

knocking on the door and it might take

708

:

another five years and it's still going

to hurt, but I'm going to own that.

709

:

I'm going to own that it's, ah,

it's painful, but it's on me.

710

:

It's not on them.

711

:

I'm not going to blame anyone

else for not hiring me.

712

:

And that's what happened to me when I ran

out of road with writing documentaries and

713

:

writing for the BBC, which was, you know,

it was a really nice stage of my career.

714

:

And after they dried up, I used to

go to London all the time, go out for

715

:

coffees, everyone was very nice, you

know, loads of stuff fell through.

716

:

Maybe some of it was personal, maybe some

of it was circumstantial, I don't know.

717

:

But in the end I kind of went, 20

production companies can't all be wrong.

718

:

So, come on, let's do something else.

719

:

At which point I kind of went, well look,

actually this library is really lovely and

720

:

I am still writing music, so just do that.

721

:

And I'm not saying no to the

other stuff, but just own it.

722

:

That's fine, I'll do that now.

723

:

Because otherwise you just end up blaming.

724

:

And that's the worst thing, you

mustn't put that on anybody else.

725

:

You've got to be master

of your own situations.

726

:

Frustrating when other people change the

course of it in ways that you don't want,

727

:

but you've got to own it yourself if you

want to move forward to the next bit.

728

:

Gareth: Brilliant.

729

:

Grace Meadows: and that really

nicely sets up what I was going to

730

:

say about taking responsibility, but

then also being really aware of what

731

:

it is you can and can't control.

732

:

So to your point about being frustrated,

you know, there are only so many things we

733

:

have the capacity control as individuals.

734

:

There are always other forces at work.

735

:

And, you know, if you don't say, look,

I've done my best at this, but, you know,

736

:

for whatever reason, it's not worked out.

737

:

Then you aren't then going to give that

critical voice or your top dog, whatever

738

:

people, I know everyone's got a different

name for their critical voice inside.

739

:

Mine's top dog.

740

:

Um, but you know, but you know, you

can turn around and say, actually,

741

:

can you just get off my case?

742

:

I did a really good thing today, or

I've worked on this project and I've

743

:

done as well as I possibly can on it.

744

:

So, you know, I can't give any more

of it and I have to just let it go.

745

:

And then it means that you're not.

746

:

You're not blaming other people.

747

:

If you haven't done a good enough job,

well then you can give yourself a hard

748

:

time about that and you can give yourself

permission to be cross with yourself.

749

:

But, I think there's something about

being able to take the emotion out of

750

:

it, ironically, and say, hang on, let's

look at this in a really practical way.

751

:

Did you give it the time it needed?

752

:

Did you give it everything

you possibly could?

753

:

Yes, great, well then, great piece of

work that you can own, move on, next

754

:

Alex Attwood: That's a

lovely way of looking at it.

755

:

And it's particularly pertinent

in our field because as jobbing

756

:

composers, we have almost no agency.

757

:

We're the last in, first

out to most productions.

758

:

We're at the whim of probably

five chains of command above us.

759

:

So, to look at it and go, well,

by my standards, have I performed

760

:

in a way that makes me proud and

happy with what I've set forward?

761

:

Because, gosh, if you're only ever

responding to what other people do,

762

:

you are at the mercy of absolutely

763

:

Gareth: Yeah.

764

:

Grace Meadows: Kind of bank of

resources to have to hand is, is

765

:

again, follows a point of yours,

Alex, about finding your tribe.

766

:

Find people that, you can have

conversations with where you feel safe

767

:

professionally, but also who might be

happy to have a conversation with you

768

:

where it sort of blurs around the edges.

769

:

Because we are not separate people,

things blend and mix and we are, you know.

770

:

But I think there is something about

finding people who, who feel like you're

771

:

a part of their tribe and they don't

have to be doing exactly the same job

772

:

as you in the industry, but they might

be people who have a similar outlook

773

:

or, um, people that you aspire to,

you know, achieve as much as they've

774

:

achieved or whatever it might be, but

find them and then connected to that.

775

:

You might find yourself in a situation

where you feel you can ask for support

776

:

or mentoring or coaching in some

way, because actually that can be

777

:

a really good, sounding board and a

way of holding yourself accountable

778

:

to your progress or your success.

779

:

As you're saying, there is no framework

necessarily for success, but if you,

780

:

if you have a mentoring relationship

with somebody, for example, then you

781

:

can set out your aspirations and,

and put a timeframe around that.

782

:

And then you can.

783

:

You know, sort of be checking in with

them on a regular basis and saying,

784

:

well, actually I've been really lax.

785

:

I haven't done anything about this.

786

:

Well, that's why you're feeling stuck, you

know, or it's not quite as simple as that.

787

:

I know, but you know, there's, there's

a conversation that you can have

788

:

there, which keeps you again, going

back to the point that Alex and I both

789

:

have been making around, you know,

owning stuff and knowing what belongs

790

:

to you and what belongs out there.

791

:

If you're desperately seeking

to develop, then actually.

792

:

That a lot of that sits with you.

793

:

So you have to put things in

place to help you do that.

794

:

And having a, a confidant, a mentor,

uh, a trusted somebody can be a

795

:

good way of, of, doing that really.

796

:

Alex Attwood: sounds lovely.

797

:

Where do I

798

:

sign?

799

:

Gareth: I think you'll have a queue

800

:

Grace Meadows: I'll send you my number.

801

:

Alex Attwood: I love, I love the idea

of, Having some sort of structure and

802

:

points of reference to work towards.

803

:

To have someone notice if

you don't do something.

804

:

Grace Meadows: It's actually a

really powerful thing, right, rather

805

:

than going, yeah, that's great.

806

:

You've not done that, but why?

807

:

And then you get into the,

but the why conversation.

808

:

What else has been going on then?

809

:

Why haven't you focused on that?

810

:

Gareth: Very often it's the

wall of indifference, isn't it?

811

:

That is the worst thing.

812

:

Yeah.

813

:

Oh.

814

:

Grace Meadows: that's a whole

815

:

Gareth: That's a whole

816

:

Grace Meadows: Ha, ha,

817

:

Alex Attwood: I just

hit you with a wall of

818

:

indifference just then.

819

:

Gareth: Yeah.

820

:

Alex Attwood: back at you.

821

:

No, it is, it's exactly that.

822

:

Because we work just so

terribly independently.

823

:

You say we've got to form

these strategies, find a tribe.

824

:

Um, and it's actually about, so, as I

said, personally, Sorry to kank on about

825

:

me again, but I've, I've got these sets

of pals that I play sport with and do

826

:

loads of things and they are the best

of guys, but again, I can't nibble

827

:

on to them about what I've been doing

work wise and it's not like they don't

828

:

ask, they do, but it's that tribe.

829

:

That you need to find and it's,

yeah, easier now with zoomification.

830

:

But still a step away.

831

:

Gareth: So, uh, you've both given some

absolutely fantastic advice over this

832

:

episode, but I do ask every guest, who

comes onto the show to leave an item

833

:

and a piece of advice in the music

room for others to find the advice.

834

:

You might want to just choose the

best bit of advice that you've already

835

:

given, or you might have another bit.

836

:

Um, Alex, let's start with you.

837

:

What item would you like

to leave to begin with?

838

:

Alex Attwood: Uh, my item, um,

predictably is a musical instrument,

839

:

but it's a hang drum, uh, handpan.

840

:

I got all excited about a project

three years ago and bought one.

841

:

And they are aggressively expensive

and I regret it enormously.

842

:

I had to sell it more recently to get

myself out of some financial strife.

843

:

But for the few years that I had it,

it just reminded you why we got into

844

:

what we're doing in the first place.

845

:

You'd pass it and it's good.

846

:

It's quite fun.

847

:

Because what we do is we play

and it just reminded you just

848

:

to enjoy playing like a kid.

849

:

And if you want to spend ages

and work out some sort of crazy

850

:

diatonic polyrhythm, do that.

851

:

If you just want to hit it and make

a nice sound with your daughter or

852

:

your mate, that's also really fun.

853

:

So have a handpan just to play on and

remember that it's just a handpan.

854

:

Playing and

855

:

fun.

856

:

Gareth: love that.

857

:

Yes, it's very easy to be distracted

by the business aspects of what we do.

858

:

So

859

:

that's, yeah,

860

:

that's a great item.

861

:

Grace, your item, what

would you like to leave?

862

:

Ah,

863

:

Grace Meadows: playing is

how we learn about the world.

864

:

It's like everything, isn't it?

865

:

You know, when we stop playing,

you know, everything stops.

866

:

I mean, I go to my musical instruments

when I need some release, but I think for

867

:

me, there's something about permission

that I would leave for somebody to find.

868

:

Um, cause we're not perfect and, um,

it's okay for it not to always be going

869

:

in the right direction and to ask for

support, um, and I don't think that

870

:

we give each other or ourselves enough

permission, so here's a massive envelope

871

:

with permission in capital letters for

somebody to cash at any point, anywhere.

872

:

Yeah, absolutely.

873

:

Permission and play.

874

:

There you go.

875

:

Gareth: Yeah.

876

:

Alex, your advice.

877

:

would you like to leave?

878

:

I

879

:

Alex Attwood: to anyone, I mean, actually

anyone young, whoever comes and sits in,

880

:

I always say get a different career first,

but that's not going to be my advice here.

881

:

Like do music for fun.

882

:

And if it takes off good on you, but

make sure that you've got a teaching

883

:

qualification or anything else

first, but that's not my main one.

884

:

And my main one too.

885

:

People who are struggling,

uh, musicians, composers,

886

:

particularly who are struggling is.

887

:

Get out of the box, get out of the

studio as regularly as possible.

888

:

Do as many different

diverse things as you can.

889

:

Play squash, help someone do dry stone

walling, um, take an art class, whatever.

890

:

Just change the landscape in

as diverse a way as possible.

891

:

Firstly, just to get some fresh wind on

your face and then to make you appreciate

892

:

when you come back to the studio.

893

:

Cause it's ultimately our choice that

we do that and we mustn't be its slave.

894

:

Do it because you want to do it.

895

:

And the only way that you can

remember that you want to do it

896

:

is by doing other stuff as well.

897

:

And we need it because writing music

is a lonely, job And it can make you

898

:

very vulnerable and you're putting

yourself out there for other people to

899

:

judge you, whether that's by saying,

I think that's crap or I'm not going

900

:

to give you any money for it, or

I'm not going to give you the job.

901

:

So in order to develop the

robustness to deal with that, get

902

:

out and about, do stuff and then

come back a little bit stronger.

903

:

Gareth: love that.

904

:

Fantastic advice.

905

:

Thank you, Alex.

906

:

Grace, how do

907

:

Grace Meadows: Couldn't agree more.

908

:

Yeah, love that.

909

:

I think, I think that's absolutely true.

910

:

And I would add to that,

obviously, use Music Minds Matter.

911

:

It's there 24 seven.

912

:

It's there for the whole industry.

913

:

Pick up the phone.

914

:

There's always somebody ready to listen.

915

:

And yeah, explore the

services that are available.

916

:

And I would also say, whether you're

well into your career, whether you're

917

:

coming into the industry on your way

out, just, you know, think about what

918

:

success looks like for you and, hold

onto that because You are not being

919

:

measured by other people's success.

920

:

What will make you truly content?

921

:

And that's what we're looking for

really in life is contentment is to

922

:

know that you've done as well as you

possibly could when it came to the

923

:

things that you wanted to achieve.

924

:

So I think there's something

about setting out that expectation

925

:

for yourself when we manage our

expectations, we're much happier people.

926

:

So yeah, work out what

success looks like for you.

927

:

Everything that Alex said, which was

absolutely spot on, couldn't agree more.

928

:

And reach out to Music Minds Matter.

929

:

Gareth: Speaking of which, would

people reach out to Music Minds Matter?

930

:

Grace Meadows: So you can go

on to our website, Music Minds

931

:

Matter, or you can give us a ring.

932

:

0 8 0 8 8 0 2 8 double 0 8.

933

:

Okay.

934

:

Gareth: Thank you very much.

935

:

I'll include the website

in the show notes as well

936

:

so people can

937

:

Grace Meadows: lovely.

938

:

Thank you.

939

:

Gareth: Alex Atwood, Grace

Meadows, thank you so much for

940

:

joining me in the music room.

941

:

Grace Meadows: Pleasure.

942

:

Thank you.

943

:

Thank you.

944

:

Gareth: Thanks for listening to

the Music Room podcast today.

945

:

If you'd like to know more about the

show or the community that surrounds

946

:

it, head to music room.community.

947

:

The link is in the show notes.

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About the Podcast

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The Music Room
Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.

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About your host

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Gareth Davies

Composer of music, producer of podcasts. Latest TV series: Toad & Friends (Warner Bros. Discovery). Current podcasts include The Music Room and Podcasting People.

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Danny Brown $5
Saw your excellent post on Facebook, and happy to become a supporter!
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Anonymous £1
Thanks for making this podcast! I appreciate all the advice and useful items that guests leave, it’s helped me think about how I go about things.